Lifepod S01E04
Cassie Thornton
Air date: April 2nd, 2026

Adam Greenfield: Welcome to Lifepod, the podcast about taking care of ourselves in a world on fire. I’m your host, Adam Greenfield.

So I don't remember exactly where I was or what I was doing when I first saw it, but I do remember what I thought the first time I picked up Cassie Thornton's book "The Hologram." It didn't take me literally until I got to the end of the subtitle, "Feminist Peer-to-Peer Health for a Post-Pandemic Future," before I was just getting, like, physiologically amped. I was already enlisted by the subtitle, and in the first couple of pages, I was already like, "This book is going to be really, really important for me, and I think really, really important for a lot of people." It is a genuinely novel contribution to the way in which we take care of each other, I think. And I'm really looking forward to hearing Cassie discuss that.

I was lucky enough to meet Cassie at the Pirate Care gathering in Berlin last fall, where she gave a really, really powerful opening talk that I'd also like to kind of unpick a little bit. And I'm just thrilled to be able, to be able to continue our conversation now. Cassie Thornton, welcome to Lifepod. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your energy with us.

Cassie Thornton: Yeah, thanks for having me.

AG: It is my pleasure. Can you tell us a little bit about the "bold vision for revolutionary care" that you elaborate in "The Hologram"? How did you arrive at that framing of things? Where does it come from? How does it work?

CT: The whole project comes from sniffing around the world to see how people organize in relationship to debt and austerity. I think I come from a family of people who have really suffered and, at times, died because of debt, just as a person growing up in the US. And so I've been just so curious to sort of, like, find out if the type of, like, kind of financial failure that I feel like was existing in my family and all the people around me as I was growing up — if that was like our fault. And it took me a long time to figure out that it definitely is not our fault.

And then I just got so curious about how different people, like, respond collectively to debt. Because in my experience, like, the response was so like, silent and isolated and filled with embarrassment. You know, I just started to look around and basically, you know, I just, I've learned so much about healthcare movements as a response to austerity, and that as an American was just so mind-blowing. Yeah, in Greece, when they existed through the same 2008 financial crisis, or the same — you know, one fractal of the larger financial crisis of 2008 — the response was to open free clinics. And I couldn't believe it, and I heard this rumor that there was, you know, there were these free clinics where everything was free, organized by all different kinds of healthcare workers who were volunteering their time alongside, just like regular people and activists, that there was this one clinic that wanted to not just give free care, but do it better, and do it different, and not replicate some of the shit that happens when you go to the doctor normally.

And so they began to kind of experiment and confront what it would mean to not have the same hierarchies in this one clinic, which is the Social Solidarity Clinic in Thessaloniki. And it still exists, and they're still doing all this stuff. So they basically had produced a model that blew my mind. And it was sort of like when, when I heard the idea of, like, what they were doing, in like a silly sentence at a party, I was like, it completely changed my life. And I was like, I could easily commit my whole life to understanding and replicating this. And all it was was that when a person went to the doctor, they were seen by three people: a doctor, a therapist and a regular person who kind of plays the role of a social worker.

And that those three people would meet with the person, who they called an "incomer," they'd meet with them, and ask them questions about all aspects of their health until they were done. Which might take three hours. And then the person receiving the care would get to say what they wanted and, like, what they needed based on what they had heard themselves talk about. And the whole procedure involved, like, you know, coffee and cigarettes and was so much more social than anything that I had ever experienced or even imagined. And I had not any interest in healthcare. I did not see it as a problem, or an issue that I was at all associated with. But then when I heard the idea of what they were doing, I was like, "Oh, actually, maybe healthcare is not like a peripheral issue, but actually the central issue."

And so it'd be, it just was so, like, life-shattering and -remaking to hear that idea. And so we basically — just me, with lots of different groups of friends at different times, tried to kind of hack away and figure out how we could do that ourselves. Because in the US, it didn't feel like we would ever have access to, like, free space or volunteer caregivers. Healthcare did not feel like a primary issue. That was kind of like hot — this was, like, back in 2015, 2016 — people were really addicted to expertise. So, like, challenging that in any way, seemed very difficult, so on so many levels, it felt impossible. And, yet we just kind of kept over and over again, kind of within the realm of, like art, like experimenting with, like, what would it mean to actually do this for each other.

And then, you know, I think the book comes out of me loving, like, science fiction, and also just having a kind of crazy brain that projects naturally into the future. And I was like, "Well, what if we made something that could, like, multiply and like, where, like, what would happen if all people, or, like, like, most people had really good long term support from three people? Just, like, what would that change?" And so it just, it just brought me to, it brought me to my knees in some way, because I was just like, "Oh — like, if everybody actually received, like, high-quality longterm care, everything would have to change for that." Like, it would mean different economy. It would mean different value system around, around our labor. It would mean a different way of using time, probably a different relationship to gender. Like, I can — you know, it just multiplied. And so the book kind of comes out of this, this big question of, like, if we, if, like, the Earth was hit by an asteroid, and that asteroid was, like, actual distributed care for everybody, like [laughter], everything fucking start over.

AG: What a glorious vision. I mean, there's already so many aspects of this that are rich and generative and a contribution to this thought. The first two are already present in your encounter in Greece, right? I mean, I was, I was a medic at the Berkeley Free Clinic in, I'm going to say 1991-1992, and so many of the things that you describe about the Greek experience are already present in that reflection as well — the idea that the person coming in the door isn't "the patient." They're not "the client." You know, I think in the Greek context, you call them "the incomer," or sometimes "the seeker of care." That's already, you know, to humanize that person, really importantly. But the other thing is simply, at the Clinic, you know, we did, I mean primary clinical medicine, right? We would pick the broken shard out of somebody's feet, we would treat the UTI. But what I learned in the course of doing that — and what is so resonant in your description of the Greek practice — is that I always felt that simply listening to somebody, you know, maybe for the first time, was the balance of what we were able to do for them. Was, was the, by far the greater part of how we were able to do medicine in that context. And I think the real contribution you make, on top of all of these understandings is this sort of self-replicating element, the fractal element. We think a lot about spontaneous infrastructure, and it is — you know, you're offering this vision of a practice that propagates kind of autonomously, until it feels, it fills the entire field of care. And I think my understanding is that you've been able to see some of that actually realized is that, is that true? Is that the case?

CT: Yeah, I think so.

AG: And you've been able to utilize this yourself in your own life, in your own community?

CT: Definitely. I mean, I don't know if I — I would have a completely different life if I did not, sort of, invest in this project personally and, like, see what happens when...yeah, I've been using it personally for six years, really consistently. But so have most of my friends. So it's like the experiment is like that, you know what happens to you when you have consistent care and attention from a group of three people, and you know that those three people also have care — because I didn't, I didn't say it earlier, but like the model we made is that, like, the hologram invites three people to meet with them that are just, that are friends, and kind of meet with them regularly and ask them questions — like social questions, physical questions and mental and emotional questions.

And then the second step of the proposal is that the hologram then asks each of their care, caregivers, their triangle members, like what kind of support they would like, and if they would like support to produce their own hologram. And so in some ways, it's viral, and it doesn't always work in that way, exactly. It works. It's a, it's an anarchist, and, you know, soft-chaos project. It moves like it wants to move through people, but it definitely moves through people. And my experience is that when you can, kind of like, hold it within a community, it really changes what it feels like. Because, you know, I think most of us have never experienced the sense that on some level, all the people that we know have some modicum of support that they need. And it's not our responsibility, and it's not about money.

I just, I know — like during the pandemic, I just, it was this humongous source of relief and discovery for me to know that, like my friends were being seen...

AG: Mm.

CT: ...and that, like nobody was, like, like, really, really alone. I mean, of course, on some level, we all are. But — and yet, like somebody's looking? And, and that wasn't just on me. It was so, it was so lifechanging. And like, yeah, yesterday we had this, our first workshop in San Francisco at this amazing bookstore Medicine for Nightmares. And I saw people who never get care because they are such chronic carers. And I think what we learned through this project is that the people that do the most carework often have the hardest time asking for help. And I saw those people be seen, and it was so amazing. It's like, like, I think in the whole process, like, you know, seeing other people get care is so therapeutic as well. Like — I, I can sleep.

AG: Mm. Mm. This was, this is one of the most powerful things for me about the talk that you gave opening up the Pirate Care conference in Berlin. You asked people to raise their hands, right? And you had two different rounds of this. Do you remember this? Could you, could you describe what that was? Because that was such an — like, that room, at the end of that process, it must have been like that in the bookstore that you're talking about. Because there was not a single person in that room that was not implicated by the questions you were asking. What were those questions?

CT: I think the first rounds of questions are like about what kind of relationship we have to care. So are we...do we spend our time as organizers, as teachers, as professional caregivers, as family members, as you know, casual or not-so-casual caregivers? And, and just sort of like helping us understand, like, how broad the idea of the, kind of, verb of care, like how big that catchment is. And so having everybody raise one hand as we slowly, like, rounded up the fact that everyone in the room is kind of, like, a chronic caregiver. And then asking people giving, like many rounds, where for people to think about, like, in what ways it's very, very hard for them to get support, to ask for support, to receive support. And so like having them, right, raise their right hand when they finally could identify with one of the questions about how it is challenging to receive or pursue support. And so, but, you know, at the, at the end of, every time I do this, like, everyone in the room has both hands up…

AG: Yeah. Yeah.

CT: And I think it's like, you know, I think that this is, like, the big challenge actually — is that, like for people to actually have both hands open and, and to actually be vulnerable enough to, like, know that they need support, and then like seek it out. I think it is very difficult for many, many people in many different ways, and sometimes it has to do with, you know, I think for many caregivers, like, do you understand like, the energetic cost of doing care? And so, like, there might be a hesitation because of that. There might be a sense of, like, most people just feel like a burden. And so there's that.

And then, I mean, I think that also works with power. I think it's really interesting, like many, many people that I've spoken to who work as professional caregivers — like, especially like doctors and higher-up nurses — are also like, they kind of think they're above it, or they're like, they've been trained out of it. Like, they don't actually believe in it for themselves anymore. And I think, like, there's so much of this, and the project kind of asks for, like, a little bit of humility, and the ability for people to just say, you know, like, "I am stuck." And everyone is actually stuck, and we all really do need some form of attention, like we're really, it really, and it really helps. And this is just, you know — this is just one way to get it that's structured, very practiced, you know. And I think on some level, like, better than "safe," like, it's, it's not like, there's like, not only is there not really, like, a threat in it, but there's also like, it produces more energy than it destroys.

AG: That I'm certain of. I would, I would actually push back a little bit about the "safe" aspect. But let me hold on to that for a second, because that's another thought. I will say that, you know, when you did ask those questions — I mean, I came to that room, um, you know, I'm not almost, I'm not always the most comfortable person in a crowd, particularly when I don't know anybody there yet. And I was in that room, and I was feeling — even though I'd already seen your book and been really moved by it, I was really excited to have these conversations — I was feeling a little bit, you know, above and apart? And, you know, and I was thinking, "Oh, this is really interesting intellectually, but I don't know that it necessarily applies to you. I'm not a caregiver." And it wasn't but three questions in I'm, you know, hands up in the air. And you framed it so exquisitely powerfully because I think, to your point, you know, everybody in that room had the opportunity to confront the ways in which they were implicated in the care of others, and the ways in which they themselves had been left in need.

And you, you did the thing, right? You made it safe for people to confess that, you know, in a group, and maybe even to themselves. And I think that is just a really, really tremendous gift to offer to people. And it cuts across, um — I mean, so many aspects of this do — cut across the, the atomization and isolation and specialization that, you know, our unwellnesses, our mental and our physical unwellnesses, are compound. They're compound of social factors, physiological factors, economic factors. And I think that the way that you frame this really helps us see that, you know, it's not about maybe just a causative microbe and a disease symptom. There's, there's a larger field that's implicated by all this.

CT: Mm hm.

AG: But I'm supercurious how you implanted that understanding among your friends, in your life. I mean, that's, that's a huge leap to me.

CT: Hmm, I just think I have really smart friends. [Laughter] I just actually think that I'm, like, a human rhizome. Like, everything that I do is so in touch with all the people around me that, as much as this comes from Greece, I think it comes, like, through so many conversations, and so — and I think through talking, so my poor friends have been talking to me about it already for four years before I actually had the guts to try it, really, in the pandemic. And so they already knew, like [laughter]. It was already embedded. And I think that's why, like the Hologram, as much as it like, came through me, and I was a great, I think I was a good conduit for it, it, like, really became a collectively-owned, or, if it's — I don't even think it is "owned," but a collectively-held project by all the people that use it. Who, the first generation, and maybe, like the first five generations, were all of my friends. Like everyone I've ever met [laughter], and then, and now, it's become something that's just, just exists, outside of that. But, yeah, I think that's why is that it like was it was for, for us, by us. I happened to be, like, the little rod that it came through.

AG: Well. You...I think you did. You did a really good job of stewarding that energy. I want to pick up the notion about, um, safety. Because there is a way in which I can see under certain circumstances, this not working out so well for everybody, and that is that you repose an awful lot of trust in people to be careful with what we might otherwise think of as privacy, or, um, sensitive information. You know, vulnerable information. One of the reasons why I have such a hard time seeing this sort of thing taking root in my environment in London is the kind of, um, almost internalized data-protection consciousness that people have here, um, that's institutionalized, that is almost like they have a GDPR script and, you know — in the States, we'd say HIPAA, right? You know, like, "Oh, I can't, I can't talk to you about that, because that's a HIPAA violation." What you're asking is for not just one or two individuals, but an entire communal mesh of people to be sensitive to these issues in ways that can't be institutionalized, that can't be written in a protocol or procedure or regulation, and yet have real consequences for people. Have. Have you ever seen that break badly in, in the Hologram?

CT: We — we haven't. I mean, I a lot of people used to come with these fears, like, I think especially before the pandemic, this was like, the two fears, or the two points of resistance were like, like, we don't have time for a non-expert protocol, you know, like, why waste our time? And the second is, like, the stuff around privacy. And there were different moments when people really wanted to, like, put the whole project on the blockchain...

AG: Oof.

CT: OK, to protect us from each other?

AG: Oh god.

CT: But usually what I ask people is to just play me out, like, what they're — what would be the fear fantasy? Like, what would really happen? Because I think once you actually do the practice, I think what often comes out is not the kind of — it's not so weaponizable, because it's actually very...it's quite different than, like, the reporting of a narrative, or the unloading of something that in such a sort of direct way. Because when we're asking questions, we're not trying to solve a problem. We're trying to, like, explore a planet.

And it's just it might be too weird to be dangerous on some level, because we're not...You've lost your job, and it's unfair. Like, let's figure it out. We're like, well, what are all the conditions? And like, what's like, what, what happened when you were a kid? And like, what were you eating that day? And like, what do you think about those other people? It's not, it's not so straight, in a way, where I think — I don't know, it's like, I think it goes underneath the issues that we're looking at, to try to find a sort of deeper sense of, like, "Why is this interesting? What are the questions that we most need to look at about it?" And like, "Who is this person becoming?" And so, yeah, I never have seen it weaponized. I think the one fear that I think has stuck with me, that other people have shared, is just one about, like, if you're doing this with people that could potentially use vulnerability — like report someone's vulnerability, like, say, even like pregnancy or illness or something like that, to like an employer. And so then like that person could, like, somehow lose their ability to earn money and reproduce themselves. But we've never, never, never had anything like that come back to us. I just, I actually think it might be too weird to be super-dangerous, like, kind of what happens in the process.

AG: Oh, I think, you know — I'm always looking for pullquotes from conversations to adorn the, you know, the podcast page. And I think "It might be too weird to be dangerous" is glorious, but

CT: Or it might be so weird that it is dangerous in a way that we, like, we could actually, like, benefit from. I think it's, like, it's not, it's not competing for a type of, like, a type of logic, or, I don't know I want to say, like, recognition or something. It's like we're actually really trying to figure something out that's, that doesn't make sense, or we're mining something that does, is not like, valued or important in our, most of our societies. And so like what we're gathering, it's not something that could be commodified in the same way that everything is commodified. It's, it's more mysterious and, like, and I think that that's where the power is. It's like a super Scorpionic project.

AG: You took a hard pivot in that room in Berlin that I think speaks directly to power, and it was about the purpose of all this. And I think it might have surprised some of the people in that room. It didn't surprise me. It filled me with fierce joy. And you characterized the whole purpose of this — you know, I think that it might be easy for some to characterize care, you know, it gets very easily feminized, and it gets dismissed and, kind of, "Oh, isn't that nice?" And you said: "No, no, this is about making us harder to fuck with." Can you expand on how you see us being "harder to fuck with"? What that means to you?

CT: Mm hmm. I think, like what I see happen in the project is that there's, like, an alien form of stability that we can produce together, that I think, like, most, most of us don't know to want. Like, I think we might see stability and comfort as like something that comes from money and work and, like, external recognition by the market. You know, a good sense of, like, where you belong in your home and, like, owning property and having all, you know, all the stuff you need — like that, that is some set, we have some sense of, like, that's where stability comes from. I think that, like, what this kind of stability comes from is actually, like, being known. And, like, knowing other people, and feeling like that is a sort of — can produce a sense of, like, belonging and security, that...it's very rare, I think, and, but when you have it, I think you become less, like, less vulnerable, because you're not searching for this stability, this mysterious stability.

And so I think it's like, like, I just see that when people practice the Hologram over time, it just slowly you see people deinstitutionalize — like, they leave the relationships behind that are ripe with bad power dynamics, like, they leave most toxic relationships. So I think like "becoming harder to fuck with" has so much to do with, like, not accepting normalized forms of, like, power that — you know, they're normal, and they benefit capital and they benefit, like, white supremacy and normativity. But they're not right. And I think it's, there's something that comes from this, like, sense of like, like knowing you belong on the planet, even if it's just through three people knowing you and seeing you and witnessing you, that like, really does a thing.

And I also think it's like, it comes from feeling like you have a tool that you can offer other people. Like that also — it's like, it's like, having a really, like, like, having something to offer is, like, so empowering. But it's, this is not something that you're going to offer to get money. It's not something you're going to offer, like, to get, kind of, attention. You're going to offer it because, like, it's the thing that everybody needs, and they might not know it, but it's pretty easy to give it to them. And so, like, I feel like that also makes you kind of harder to fuck with, because you're like, you're not helpless. I mean, I think nobody is helpless, and there's so many tools that we all need and want. But like, it's just so cool to have one. [Laughter.] I hadn't really had one before that I trusted so much, and I think it does a lot.

Because there's just a sense otherwise — I mean, I remember I did this interview, like, three years in, like, after, like, seven of my friends had been practicing the Hologram really steadily for three years, and I did an interview with them about, like, what happened inside of them in this process. And one of them was just like, "I'm an organizer. And my whole life, there were always people who I just thought, like, were beyond my help. Like, there's just no hope. There's nothing I can really offer them. They're fucked. And I just have this, like little thing in my back pocket that's like super-magic and kind of, like, practical magic. And I can just, I can just do it for them, and stuff will change."

It's not gonna change everything, but it's gonna — it's gonna produce that. It's like, some energy, a sense that, like, I don't know, like, the person in the situation is important, and like, worth, worth holding, worth maintaining. You know? I mean, that's a little bit...but I also feel like the, in that talk, I was showing images of, like, old people, older people doing direct actions in support of Palestine Action in the UK — like just after, you know, any support for them became, you know, known as terrorism. And they're just so many amazing images of elder people, you know, putting themselves in the line. And I think it's really interesting to think like that there is an equation between, like, stability and risk. And we can do risk better. And, like, I just I see this as, like, so promising — that we get better at, like, doing what we believe in more and longer at greater risk as we also build more stronger rhizomes of support underneath all of us, that can actually hold us through all of that. I just, I've just, I feel like quite excited about it, because I just think it's so much less boring than avoidance.

AG: It is — and what to me it is, a practical instance of one of the most powerful words I've ever heard. Unfortunately, the word and the concept were contributed by somebody that I don't regard with a whole lot of respect. But, but there's a writer who introduced this notion of "antifragility." And antifragility is, you know, he defines it as, uh, "systems which get stronger under stress." And it's actually, you know — there's the immune system, which is, you know, a good example of that. There are some physical tensegrity structures. But as a writer, it's really, really difficult to come up with concrete examples of antifragile systems. I think the notion is really, really important, but it's hard to convey to people, and what the Hologram gives me as a writer is a way of pointing to something real that, under conditions of risk and exposure, actually becomes more powerful, actually does get stronger. The, um, the very next question has to be from, for me as a reader and as sort of an avatar of the audience: this stuff sounds so good. It sounds so immediately achievable. It sounds like something I want in my life. But I have no idea how to go about getting from where I am now to the sort of milieu that you've been living in. What's your practical advice to somebody who, you know, they bought the book, they bought the ticket, they're convinced, they're onboard. But they don't even know how to start talking to their friends about it.

CT: There's lots of ways to start, but the most important thing is imagining and asking three people to meet with you once. And, um, giving them a little bit of a sense of, like, what it's for, so that they can come. And that is like the biggest hump. What we have done for the last six years is offer like this free online facilitation for your first meeting where, like, it's called, like, you can you can ask for what's called, like, a "minimum viable Hologram." And there's, like, a pretty big network of people that have been facilitating people's sessions and so, and a lot of people also — you know, we're all around the world, so we can also sometimes offer it in person. But it's basically just like somebody to walk you through your very first meeting, so that you don't have to, like, facilitate and also be the person receiving all the attention. And that feels like the most solid plan.

And, like, you know, the first book, the book from Pluto, was like a theoretical book that, I didn't really know, like, what would come of the Hologram at that point, when I wrote it. It's really about, like, the why, and like, the very general sense of, like, what it what it could be. But then over time, it became a very — it's a very structured protocol. That structure, I think, is very useful for avoiding advice and expertise and all of that. In order to kind of share that, now there's a new book which has, like, the step-by-step instructions very clear in it. And also, like, a model letter for like, how to invite somebody so that you don't have to write your own letter. Because I think the Hologram can feel like an overwhelming thing to describe. Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's how things generally start. And my sense is that, like, it's just very hard to do stuff alone. I mean, it's almost — I mean, it's not "almost," it is kind of a rule among all the Hologram organizers that we pretty much always do something with somebody else. So like, having a buddy that also wants to set up their Hologram, I think is really helpful.

The second part of the Hologram is the community of practice, which is like where, you know, we've had a monthly meeting in, sometimes in English and Spanish, every, ever since, like, April of 2020. And they also happen in lots of cities around the world in person, but where you basically get to talk with other people about their experience in a very, like, a slightly facilitated, like, really cool talking circle. And you just get to, like, hear, you get to ask questions about it for yourself, or share tensions, and then you get feedback from everybody about it. And because I think like giving and receiving care is, like — it's complicated in, in a personal way as well as, like, a political way. And I think there's just so much to talk about and share, and this is such a special way where we take, like, this practice of Hologramming, and then, like, make it into something that feels more like a really weird social movement. And having that, like — you know, if you had started your Hologram, and you met for six months, and it was really like a thing you got one to keep doing, and you also had a friend doing that, then, you know, every maybe, like, every half a year, it might be really cool for all of you that have been doing the Hologram to just meet up. And maybe, like, one or two people that have never done it before comes too, and you all get to, like, talk about it. And, like, I just think that's kind of the way that I've seen it grow and move. And in the UK, there's so many people that do it.

AG: Are there?

CT: So it's very — I think there's WhatsApp groups, and there's there's pretty, it's been there for, well, kind of all along, because one of my first collaborators is, was living in London, but now is in Wales, and she — Lita Wallis — and so she's, she's an amazing organizer and youth worker and stuff. And so she just has planted it really well. And so, yeah, so I think it's just like, you know, also just like we can help you find those people, we have a big Telegram group where there's, like, maybe 400 people there, also where we can kind of do check-ins, and figure out who is where, and connect people.

AG: And how do people get ahold of these resources?

CT: thehologram dot xyz.

AG: Awesome, thanks. What are you working on now?

CT: I'm doing a real struggle project, I, um — or a project that is causing me a lot of struggle, which is I made a waiting room. And, like, now — so I used to live in Berlin the last couple of years, and now I live back in California, in the Bay Area. And I just felt like, "Wow, the apocalypse is here, and we're moving really, really quickly in the most avoidant directions, most of us." We are just living the same that we would be if there weren't multiple wars and, you know, the highest temperatures on record, and all of this. And I just, I love this, this title that Johanna Hedva called a lot of their early writings, which is, like, "The Earth is Our Hospital." And then I found out that T.S. Eliot had written this whole poem, including this, that phrase, "the whole earth is our hospital." And it was another one of those phrases, kind of like when I heard the rumor of the hologram, like, it really stuck with me, and kind of started to change something for me just knowing this phrase. And so I wanted to make the Waiting Room — like, if the whole Earth is a hospital, here's the waiting room.

And so, yeah, so I made a space where, I think, um, I'm asking people to come and, like, wait together. And it's really hard to ask people for — to steal their time, when time here feels like really accelerated, maybe more than anywhere and anytime I've ever existed. And it just, it feels shockingly hard. Even like before — it's like people are accepting the invitation, but I find it very difficult to sort of ask for this time and space to wait. And for me, like, it's sort of about squaring the fact that I think we're living in like two dimensions at the same time. And that, like, there's one dimension that I call the Flat White Dimension, where we're kind of drinking really strong coffee, and doing rigorous exercise, and trying to make money so that we can pay rent and, like, we're just sort of, like, on the track. We're on the track, as if everything's gonna just kind of hold — you know, there's the sense that that is a forever thing, because we have to make it that way. But it's actually like, in my mind, really losing force. And then meanwhile, we know that there's like demons coming out of the sidewalk. And demons being — well, everything that has been repressed in order to produce Empire and build on it is coming out, and it's very visible to the Flat White Dimension. But we also choose not to necessarily engage with it, or we can't. And the excuse, I think, in some ways, is money. I think money is the excuse, but, but there's also more. And so I guess, like, the whole Waiting Room is, like grounded in this giant painting I made of these two dimensions, like these two line graphs. And we're waiting for this kind of mythological moment when the demons coming out of the sidewalk, kind of, is, becomes a stronger force than the Flat White Dimension, and we cannot ignore it anymore. And so it's like this, this waiting for this mythological crossing, as if it's going to be, like, [gestures] and everything will be different. And, yeah — I mean, I don't know how to wait. I feel so scared and, like, so scattered, and I feel like the waiting is actually so important, but it needs to be done collectively.

AG: Mm.

CT: And it feels like a really big responsibility that, for a person who — I have no patience, I'm very scared, I'm moving faster than ever, I feel very avoidant. And for me to kind of actually hold space for waiting is just excruciating, but that's why I'm doing it.

AG: That sounds like a challenge, but like the best kind of challenge? Um. Yeah, it occurs to me sometimes that the gift of an acute crisis is the way in which it breaks through that tension between these two time tracks, and it allows you to focus on the exigent needs of survival that you haven't really been able to attend to during, you know, what you, you call Flat White time. You know: you know you have to and, and you can't. Because all of the incentive architectures of that time pull in the other direction. And the gift of the crisis is that really it just makes that absurd, and all of a sudden, there's no choice but to do the things that you know that you have to do, and that a big part of you wants to. But I can see how that transition is the most difficult thing of all.

CT: And I think, like, what you said is so smart. It's like, the things that actually you kind of know you want to do. But also, I feel like the resistance, as you get closer to it, until you're there, the resistance can be so strong. And it's like, like, all the million tiny boxes that you're going to check off on your list before you let yourself do, like, really focus on, like, what am I going to do about water?

AG: Yeah, yeah.

CT: It's so weird. And I don't know. I mean, I don't know...I don't know what the point is of articulating that? But I also feel like that's what I'm up to is — you know, I just, I feel like, somehow, like I'm, I'm seeking some kind of comfort in naming and in, like, just being like, this is the thing we're in. We're in exactly this tension.

AG: I mean, I think it's already powerful to name these things. I think, to help people be aware of and articulate to themselves what they experience, psychically, bodily — you know what, I mean, this is not, I think, I mean, I'm sure you'll find that that that is not a controversial framing that you're offering. I think everybody's going to respond to that, and recognize and say, "Yeah, that is — that describes my life. My brain is torn in two. Literally, the hemispheres of my mind are responding to different sets of conditions in the world, and that itself is setting up a lot of friction for me."

And just calling that out for what it is, is already a contribution, um, you know, for which I'm sure you pay the price, but for which I think we have to be grateful and appreciative. Um. What do you, what are you reading right now? What's, what's piquing your curiosity?

CT: What am I reading? I actually don't know. I mean, I think my attention feels like it is the weirdest it's ever been, and I've never had so so much trouble reading — like I have maybe four books started, and none of them can actually hold me at the moment.

I'm very curious. I just got today Julio Linares's new book about money, that comes from the Vagabond series that "The Hologram" and everything comes from, and I think I'm going to be able to read this, because it feels like something that I was, like, I was really a part of thinking — very obliquely, like very to the side and all around Julio, but I feel like a creature from a similar planet, and that we both feel like there's some kind of, like, potential in really looking at money as a way to understand some of the situations that we're in. And, yeah, just like, not looking away from that as — like, the apocalypse is like, sort of build on top of that, on top of the unfairness and colonialism and exploitation that is built into our money. So I can say that I'm, I'm hopeful about reading that, but I am having a really, really hard time with my attention span. And I don't think I'm the only one.

AG: You're absolutely not. I mean, I know that you're not. And I think it's become sort of mainstream — a mainstream notion that we're all struggling, or most of us are struggling with this. The thing that I find really hard to deal with, but it's obviously not afflicting you: I find it hard to frame my thoughts. I find it just, like, I feel like I'm babbling all the time. You know: that nothing that what I'm saying, nothing that's coming out of my mouth is anywhere close to what I'm trying to articulate. And it combines with the inability to attend to things for very long in a pernicious way. It just makes me feel like I'm constantly laboring through, you know, like, a thick, oily membrane.

CT: Yeah, I'm really grateful to hear you say that, because I think that that I have that too. And I'm like, I'm — it's been so hard to produce a project inside of this. I call it "the brain fog of war."

AG: Heh. Heh. That's great.

CT: I just, I'm really desperate to speak with people, because the only way I think I can speak with...that I can actually understand is through talking it out with other people. And I think we're all quite foggy, and maybe, like, a little bit of our radar is kind of blocked?

AG: Mm, mm.

CT: Um, so I have — that's very familiar to me too. I would say, like, the person, the person and her work, that has helped me the most through all of this is Miranda Mellis, who's a friend and a writer. And her newest book "Crocosmia" is like an eco-revenge novel that really focuses on a relationship. You have it?

AG: Yeah.

CT: It really focuses on a relationship that's very, very real, between a mother and a daughter, and the mother is this revolutionary who, in some ways, needs to abandon the daughter to participate in, like this giant conceptual art project that saves the world from CEOs. And all of Miranda's work is incredibly focused, and has, like, um, it has this real, like, voracious hunger for beauty. And it's also like, like, angry, and really well researched. And I think like being around her work in particular keeps me sort of on track on some level. Yeah, I would — I mean her older work, like "The Revisionist," "The Revolutionary," "[The] Spokes" — like all of her smaller books are really worth getting and just like keeping with you, I think.

AG: Oh, that's great. Yeah, no, I hadn't heard of her. My friend Nick, who's also my editor at Ill Will, was staying at the house for a couple of days — while I was in Berlin, actually — and when I got back, he had left this little care package, this kind of thank-you gift, and the book was part of it. So I'm, I'm really grateful to him. And yeah...

CT: I like that guy.

AG: Yeah, you, uh, you — generically or specifically?

CT: Just generically, yeah.

AG: No, he is. I mean, you would like him. Listen, I know you gotta run to your next engagement, but Cassie, I'm so — let me first thank you for all of your work. It's been really generative for me, and I am so grateful that you took the time to come join us on Lifepod and have this conversation. Thanks so much.

CT: So fun to talk to you always.

AG: Yeah, I look forward to more of it. So the URL is thehologram dot xyz, and that's where people can find resources? Okay, fantastic. Take care of yourself. I'll talk to you soon.

CT: See you later. Bye.

AG: If you're interested in the sorts of things we've been talking about today, you might just enjoy my book "Lifehouse: Taking Care of Ourselves in a World on Fire," available directly from the good folks at Verso, at versobooks.com.

Lifepod is made with love in Newington Green, London. Like anything of value, it's the outcome of a collective effort. Editing, audio engineering and production for Lifepod are by Laurence Green. The typography and graphic design are by Chris Lee. Thanks so much to Agriculture for permission to use excerpts from their song "Living is Easy" as our theme music. I'm Adam Greenfield. Until next time, take care of yourself. Take care of the ones who need you. And let them take care of you. Remember: we are the ones we've been waiting for.